Cascade Crew

[dlp]

I am at a crossroads with my 87 IROC. I have set of AFR 195cc Eliminator heads on the bench and want to go with a cam that can take advantage of the flow these things provide. I am thinking that a cam in the .580 lift, 232 duration and +/- and 112 lobe seperation angle range should do. I already have a problem with the old school TF heads and mild comp cam ( .498 I, .509 E, 226 D, and 114 duration). The current set up outflows the max 250 grams per second that the computer can handle. The new setup will be worse.

Anyone know a good tuner that can take care of the tune for the AFR's and new cam with MAF? I would love to convert to SD and tune myself, just dont have the time.

[Twilightoptics]

Once the 255gm/sec is reached it just runs in a table of RPM = Fuel

SD is definitely a better way to go. It's not too bad on wiring. Or you could run the coin and get the Holley Commander 950 Computer with wiring. Tune on the fly, no chips, plug in play except for like 4-5 wires. Only downside is you start from a new tune, though I bet they've got one close or even one of my old ones would be close.

It's called Power Enrichment.

Shouldn't be much of a problem. See lots of guys doing it. It's do able because when you're over 255gm/sec based on the MAF< you're already wot, so it really is 100% load and RPM = XXX fueling.

Definitely need to tune anything other than a stock car when any cam/heads/intake come into play.

[dlp]

I have seen alot of opinions on TGO regarding MAF vs SD, seems like MAF is more forgiving but SD is more accuret. I want to get this proposed setup tuned on the button, just dont have the time to do it myself. With the cam and heads that I am going to install the little 350 that could should put out abot 400 rwhp. That is what I am expecting atleast.

The change to SD isnt cost prohibitive, just dont want to spend a ton on tuning with SD.
In retrospect, I wish I would have spent the coin and dropped an LS1 in it.
The reason I say this is that the late model computers have more processing power and dont need the work arounds that the 3rd gens need for equivilent power. They are lighter etc. I would like to stay with the MAF but the 255 GPS limit seems daunting.

[Twilightoptics]

Like I said the 255 really doesn't mean much. You can tune all the drivability within the parameters of the MAF you have. It's only high RPM WOT that will exceed that value. Which the stock ECM is already set for. I wouldn't convert to a thirdgen SD setup.


Good luck on the 400rwhp. I know just how hard that gain is going to be. With my setup I only put out 330RWHP, Mike with his AFRed 383 didn't even crack the 400 mark N/A.

[dlp]

Twilight, thanks for the input.

I dont know if 400 RWP is realistic, but it should be close if the tune is good. The current setup in my car put down 299.8 rwhp and 36? ftlbs of tq right after I put it togethar, ten years ago. This was with the wide band pegged lean. Good thing the CR was only 9:0 - 1 and I had race gas in it. The new AFR 195 Eliminators and Cometic head gaskets should bring the CR up to a decent 9:8 ish to 1. The small cam is also destined for top shelf storage. I going to install a larger cam also, something in the .560 - .580 lift, 230 duration and 113 LSA range. I would go bigger but I dont think the T-Ram will support the air flow.

What would you suggest for a cam?

[Boostd1]

What you could do is (IDK if you can do this on your cars) is wire in an SAFC and use it to scale the MAF...works excellent.

As far as a cam would go, you could always do a custom grind! But if you go with a bigger MAF or an SAFC, I would go all out with a .600 lift cam. If not, a .572 lift cam sounds excellent for your setup!

[Twilightoptics]

[Boostd1]

Oh I hear you on that. But what the SAFC does (to my knowledge) is it takes the current value, and tells the PCM its a lower value, then it adjusts that "lower-high" value to what it would be at WOT...

Thats how I understand it at least.

[dlp]

I would sacrafice some streetability to run a cam in .600 + lift and 240 duration range if I knew some one that I trust to tune it. The short block is a stock ZZ4 so I dont think it would hold up to many 6500 + rpm adventures not to mention the valvetrane.

[Twilightoptics]

I've never had a cam that ran the peak numbers where it says.

My cam now should peak at 7, but it only peaks at 6. Can't see where the limitation is.

If you've got good pushrods, and full roller rockers you should be good to 7k no problem.

[dlp]

Man there alot of factors that go into 7K rpms. I am no expert but from what I have read over the last 20 years, rod bolts and valve springs ( especially with a hydraulic roller lifter) come into play above 6K rpm. I know you can push it 6500 ocasionelly, but 7K on a consistant basis needs to be addressed.

[Twilightoptics]

Been rollin 6500+ for 6-7 years lol.
I cross the stripe at about 6800. Rev limited at 7, and with alot of burnouts and stuff 7k happens in a hurry.


Your motor needs to be balanced, good bolts are a factor, but the better the balance the less the come into play. Definitely need a good tune.

Crazy when the boss is rolling a roots super charged 454 on alcohol at 7 grand running sub 8second in the liquid 1/4mile! That's alot of mass!

I never appriciated how fast stuff is really going on in there, until balancing motors when the crack only spins to 400rpm.... and man that thing is cookin!LOL

The more duration you get, the higher the RPM should go.

Lift needs to be based on the heads, hands down. My heads don't do alot over 6 so I didn't go anywhere that high. I'm at the limits of my installed height for springs and flow etc.

Not sure what the AFRS like but when the increase per .1 lift slows, that's where your cam should about stop. Be sure it can actually handle what you're going to throw at it and use the MFG recommended springs, not what AFR supplies. I highly recommend the coin on Beehive springs/retainers. Awesome design!


There comes a point when you realize the 350 just isn't going to do what you want it.

Sure guys get 500hp rw out of em, but you're talking superior bottom end, 14deg heads, etc etc. Race cars man LOL

What cams have you looked at so far? What would AFR recommend? Talked to any cam MFGs? Solid or Hydro?

Still like the power VOODOO makes. I gained about 15hp by adding 2deg duration and a little lift over my previous cam.

[Schultzy89GTA]

Dave,
What are you wanting to do with her? Is the 400 mark just a number that you want to see or are you looking to drag race, road race, just have a hot street machine?

I only have a little experience but have a few data points that 'might' be helpful to you based on what you are trying to achieve.

-Schultzy

[dlp]

To be honest, I would like the car to run low 12's with street rubber, period. A lesser requirement would be decent streetability. I dont have the resources now (Bah by 30K bonus) to build a stroker engine and would like to squeez every tenth out of the ZZ4 short block I can. I think the tune that is in the current settup is not close and am willing to pay for a good custom tune after upgrading the heads and cam.

My younger brother has an 05 GTO that I would like to hang with. Almost stock Goat versus my current setup = even. He has added SW headers, Spin Tech Cat back, Vararam intake, SLP canned tune, and has a .610 cam and LS3 heads on the bench. His setup should produce low 12's, 450rwhp and 440 rwhp rwt respectively. My car is lighter, with my next round of mods I would like to stay close to his.

I know it will be hard to do with an old school 350, but I think my car will make more tourqe and come close to RWHP.