Cascade Crew

Xophertony · Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:56 pm Post subject: insane tranny thread

so my six is my daily. it could use a new clutch. is there any reason to spend more then 112.95 on a clutch? i am not looking to do any major racing or anything. the napa kit includes a "perfection" clutch and throwout bearing. it is an organic clutch.

EDIT* thread name changed to reflect new topic Smile

Dewey316 · Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:17 pm Post subject:

I don't see any reason you would need a performance clutch, you should be fine with that kit. If I were you, the one thing I would get is a new pilot bearing. IIRC the GM replacement bearings, are roller bearings, you might verify that whatever pilot bearing you get, is a roller bearing, not a brass bearing like it had stock.

iansane · Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:04 pm Post subject:

Twilightoptics · Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:26 pm Post subject:

I'm running a brass one from McCleod

chevymad · Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:38 pm Post subject:

The brass one is fool proof and will never tear up the end of the input shaft. However if it gets extremely worn it can allow input shaft movement which they say will tear out the input bearing.

The roller bearing has alot of small hardened steel pins/rollers, and its in an ungreasable position with alot of metal/clutch lining grindings. When it comes apart, which they do, the hardened steel will tear up the input shaft where the pilot rides.

I lean towards the brass myself, as I see alot of roller bearings that all the pins are ground out of.

Xophertony · Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:15 pm Post subject:

so i should get a brass pilot bearing as well. cool.

another question. i have never actualy done a clutch before... i am going to have to drop the tranny for this arent i?

Schultzy89GTA · Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:29 pm Post subject:

Sorry bud, not going to get out of that one.

-Schultzy

Xophertony · Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:38 pm Post subject:

meh... it needed doin anyways...

hey schultz, what kind of tranny do you have in your GTA? it's a Tremec TKO 5speed right? since paul said my overdrive is "not long for this world" i am trying to get together a working budget for a 5 or 6 speed swap. i am looking at 5speed right now... 6 speeds are SPENDY, and i don't want to put a used tranny in.

iansane · Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:38 pm Post subject:

Xophertony · Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:50 pm Post subject:

<100#s !!! Cool

Schultzy89GTA · Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:56 pm Post subject:

Yes Tony, I'm running the TKO. It's all expensive. This is one of those major points in your driveline that you have to figure out what you are going to do with the car and what you can take on. The picture gets much more clear after that. Sometimes painfully so Wink

.

Used isn't always a bad option if you factor in the possibility that a rebuild would be necessary while you are price comparing. Then it just becomes more of a matter of what kind of gambler you are.

What options are you looking at? Paul just put in his T56 a bit cheaper than most (I think). You should also consider a scattershield while you are in there. It's money but the way I look at it my legs are worth every penny.

-Schultzy

P.S. I assume you are talking about the GTA

Xophertony · Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 6:29 pm Post subject:

yeah, it's for the GTA. this will probably happen next summer. my tranny should hold on that long Shocked

. plans for the car are basically the same as yours. basically an all around perormer, with emphisis on aggressive street driving (like road course/autoX style stuff). as fun as drag racing is i could realy care less how fast the car is in a straight line, don't get me wrong, i like to tell people my car runs a 14.3, and i would not mind telling them it ran a 13 flat, but i am not building a drag car.

i figure i can do most of the work myself, though i would not mind a crew work day or two Very Happy

. i would like a T56 because of the badass factor of having a six speed trannsmission, and shifting more often makes me feel like i am going faster. but when it comes down to it i guess it does not realy matter if it is five or six speeds... it realy only makes a difference in 4th 5th and 6th anyway right? i mean 1-5 are going to have mostly the same ratios in a 5 or six speed tranny right? i figure the 6 speed will have a lower 5th gear then a 5 speed and a higher 6th gear then the 5 speeds 5th.. though i realy should check what the gear ratios are... i know if i went with a tremec i would pay the extra 100$ to get the 600 with the slighly higher overdrive... because of the higher HP/TQ ratings.

anyway, i am going to go lookup gear ratios...
you know what i should have done was drive both your car and pauls car... since your cars put about the same HP to the ground (mikes has more HP but can't get it to the ground) it would have been a good tranny comparison.... of course this theory would hinge on the fact that both of you are foolish enough to let my behind the wheel of your cars Laughing

EDIT_______________
wow, so i could not have been MORE wrong. they are almost completly different. the tremecTKO600 has a steeper first gear, which could be good for a lower powered car (like mine, for now) because it will alow for quicker acceleration then the shallower T56 (since i don't realy have to worry about traction yet) but in a car that has traction issues this steeper first gear will work against you. that is where it would be nice to have the higher 2.97 ratio for first. the T56s 2nd gear is a little low compared to the 2nd of the tremec, so two equal cars, one with the 600 one with the T56, the tremec car would probably pull away in second (provided they both started at a 30MPH roll allready in 2nd). overall i think the TKO would be a better coice for my car if i were going to use it primarily for drag racing (though a 700R4 would be even better for straight line racing) or if i were not planning on upgrading my engine any further in the future, as it would allow for a faster "jump" off the line. but the T56 seems to be a better all-around transmission. it's tighter gear ratios should allow me to stay in my powerband through the corners better. and it's lower 5th will alow me to be in overdrive sooner (yealdiong better gas mialage) and its higher 6th will allow me to keep the RPMS lower even at higher freeway speeds (read: illegal freeway speeds). plus the higher 1st gear will realy work for me once i start putting more power down in the future.
the gear ratios break down like this:
GEAR............T56............TKO600 5speed
1ST.............2.97............3.27
2ND.............2.07............1.98
3RD.............1.43............1.34
4TH.............1.00............1.00
5TH.............0.80............0.68
6th..............0.62..................
Reverse........3.28............3.00

now the only thing i have to do is price out both swaps and see if the additional cost of the T56 is outweighed by the added awsomness.

Schultzy89GTA · Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:26 pm Post subject:

With the new TKO500 and TKO600 you actually have a choice of 1st gears. The 3.27 was the only one available on the Tremec 3550 variants (3550, TKO, TKOII). I am not on my home computer but I'll send you some info if my kids ever let me back on it. The six speed is pretty versatile though - gives you a few more options for down the road.

-Schultzy

Twilightoptics · Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 7:00 am Post subject:

Tony, the pilot bearing and throw out bearing should come with your new clutch kit. When I get a stocker kit I usually get it from clutch doctors. They'll resurface the flywheel for free when you buy the kit.

Jess · Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:02 am Post subject:

Those T56 ratios are for the 93 replacement tranny. The 94-97 (and LS1 years for that matter) Have a different spread:

2.66:1 first
1.78:1 second
1.30:1 third
1.00:1 fourth
.74:1 fifth
.50:1 sixth

3.28:1 reverse.

75MPH ~1700 RPM in 6th w/ 3.42's (thats about what it looks like on my tach anyway)

Twilightoptics · Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:36 am Post subject:

Jess... the '94-'97 ratio's are also the same for the LS1 T56s.

http://www.tciauto.com/tech_info/calculators.htm#6

Good calculators there.

3.75 and our 25" tires puts 6th at 60 at 3025RPM.

It also says that I need about a 4.20 gear for the track Shocked

I recommended the LS1 T56. Like $200 more than the LT1 version, but you can use all thirdgen equipment. With the $200 adapter to make it work, all costs itself might be the same.... the clutch is cheaper on replacement as is the flywheel and any other component for the LS1 (thirdgen stuff) so the costs balance. But future replacement is cheaper, AND you can get a scattersheild. Can't do that with the LT1 unless you spend serious money and conversion stuff at McCleod.

Dewey316 · Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 9:24 am Post subject:

Brandon, where do you guys even find brass pilot bearings? I know GM superseided the one on my car, and the only peice they now offer is the roller bearing.

I know Paul got his from McCleod, but it is also a longer one IIRC, to work with the input shaft location on the T56.

--John

iansane · Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 10:26 am Post subject:

Twilightoptics · Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:05 pm Post subject:

schucks, napa, autozone, or in the kit.

McCleod makes stock ones too

Quasi-Traction · Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:48 pm Post subject:

Tony,

Consider also your rear end when you think about transmission swaps. You have a 3.23 9 bolt. Do you want to keep that rear? Would you upgrade to say a set of 3.70's or maybe 4.10's?

If it were my car and I was planning on retaining your 3.23 9 bolt, I'd go with the Tremec 5 speed. I think your stock crossmember can be retained, instead of having to get one for a T56. Plus you have the option of that super agressive 3.27 first and a fairly agressive 2nd gear. You will lose one OD gear with the Tremec, but with a 5 speed and a .68 OD gear, your final drive ratio with the 3.23's should be around 2.10-2.20ish. Not too bad for cruising.

Just something to consider.