Cascade Crew

[Xophertony]

so my GTA has this badge that says "performance suspension" and everytime i see it i want to laugh cause my suspension/steering sucks so much ass. anyway, this Crazy Canadian mountain challange has got me in the mood to get under the GTA and replace the steering/suspension system. that way i can drive my TransAM instead of my v6.

when i did the six i used "energy suspension" polyeurothane (sp?) bushings, stock replacement balljoints, Moog/TRW springs, tie rods, center link, idler arm. i did not replace the shocks (still stock ). i never have had any problems with any of it. in fat the steering system on that car took a few curb hits after that (less then 10MPH, but sideways) and never even came out of alignment. however i am wondering is what you guys recomend as far as suspension/steering products go.

i want to keep stock ride height. as far as how built up i want to go... i am not sure. i am mostly looking for great street handling. somthing i can feel confident in driving through Canadian mountains at high rates of speed. just to clairify, i am not looking for pro-race or anything. but i do want better then stock. i also want to maintain the original style setup. i do not wish to convert to rack&pinion or anything like that. any insight you suspension gurus can provide would be great.

so far i plan to deffinatly do the following:
polyurityhane bushings all the way around
TDS greasable sway bar bushings front and rear (do they make rears?)
new sway bar endlinks front and rear.
Self boxed A-Arms

the rest i am open to segustion on. the main things i need help on are shocks ( i know baisicaly how they work, but thats it), spring choice (dealer replacements?), those nifty bearing shock tower things (do i need them?). and i would also like segustions on the brand of other components to get. i like the Moog/TRW stuff i have on the six, but it could be just because i have never experianced the awsomeness of brand X or whatever...

sorry for the four chapter novel i am writting here, i cut it down substantialy from the first draft . thanks in advance.

[Twilightoptics]

Boxed A arms?!


What I've done with suspension:

KYB GR-2 Struts in the front.
Boxed LCAs (Poly Bushed)
LCA Relocation Brackets
Energy Suspension Trans Mount/End Links
Tubular Panhard (Poly bushed)
Subframe connectors
Adjusted Pinion angle
Cut springs in the back with 2nd insulators to maintain height.

What I'm going to do:
KYB Shocks in the back
Cut all springs around 1 coil to stiffen things up
Tubular LCA's with spherical rod end (To eliminate bind)
Del-a-lum front suspension bushings (better than poly)

I don't know that the idler arm/steering linkage will net you much of anything unless it's bad.

Mike's car handles absolutely excellent. He's got alot of what I do, KYB shocks, like a 2" front 1.5" rear eibach drop springs, spohn torque arm, tubular lcas.

I wish my car handled as well and was as predictable.

Right now on a hard say 35 mph corner, I'm lifting if not damn near lifting the inside rear tire and it's rather discomforting. Especially when it settles.

[Xophertony]

i am about half sure my steering linkage is all original. those are wear parts... so.. yeah. also, i would like to maintain stock height/geometry. (prefer no drop springs), i have a hard enough time not scraping the exhaust over stuff now...

are tube a-arms worth it? i have seen a few pictures of them broken . what brand do you have?

i can box the rear panhard bar... i realy need access to a welder that can PENITRATE instead of making bird shizzle on the outside welding would solve all my problems.

thanks for the input so far.

[Dewey316]

My advice.

Spend all the money you can on shocks/struts, and fixing worn bushings. See how it feels then.

I would go with Bilstein HD's for what you seem to want. I do think the Koni's are the best shock out there for our cars (off the shelf anyway, revalved bilstein race shocks, or Penske's are best, but come at a BIG cost).

I would get del-a-lum from a-arm bushings, and fix any WORN parts, a sphere-bearing panhard is nice, and helps tigten the feels.

Since you already have the WS6 sway-bars and springs, I would leave those for now, they are a pretty good balance.

Don't bother looking at all the cool expensive stuff you CAN add. Most of the really trick peices, won't do diddly, until you have everything else up to snuff. Like my upper strut mounts, they are worthless, unless the rest of my front suspension is TIGHT, and not giving. it does no good to have hard-core parts, if there are other parts that are goign to give, and flex first.

Other things, this is all my opinion. Do not box the stock LCA's, and put in poly bushings. It might feel better, but what you are doing, is creating a bind situation. This increases the roll rate. If you want a higher roll rate on the rear, I suggest getting heavier springs.

Also, there is no use in boxing your front a-arms.

[Dewey316]

[Twilightoptics]

Tony, anything you want welded you can bring up here and we can do.

John, you really thing a spherical vs tubular/poly panhard is better?

I think subframes are a MUST Tony.

I will be ditching my boxed LCAs as soon as I can afford new ones... though I saw Parkrose Hardware had spherical rod ends... I might be cutting off the poly on one end, welding a tube, and the spherical end! They would be adjustable too but I'm not sure just how to do it without creating the Johnnyspohn incident.

I love the KYB. Best cheap bang for the buck. I know they aren't top of the line, but they kick the crap out of monroe and all those stock and even semi stock replacements.

John, I thought stiffer rear springs would help keep the inside tire on the ground?

[Dewey316]

1) Yes I do. That is a not twisting, really, non impact peice. The key on the panhard is to mimize deflection, the panhard is really the only peice i would suggest spherical bearings on both ends, for car that only see's street time.

2) "I'm not sure just how to do it without creating the Johnnyspohn incident." -- If you have 1 spherical, you shouldn't have that problem. The problem I had, was from the binding of poly/poly, and a threaded adjustment. If you want LCA's, shoot me a PM or call me. I'll show you how to do it on the cheap. (same for a pan-hard).

3) "John, I thought stiffer rear springs would help keep the inside tire on the ground?" -- Lots of factors here. Stiffing everything up, may help out, but you will need to keep the car balanced, which is going to mean stiffer front springs also. Lifting the inside rear tire is not uncommon on our cars, We would really need to watch you PUSH the car, or drive it myself to really see how the balance is on it. If you are getting some snap oversteer, it may not be the inside tire lifting.

I will also add, the boxed LCA's you have, may be contributing to it lifting that inside rear. That is another issue with binding up the rear suspension. You also have your LCA's oriented to induce roll-oversteer. That can give you an unsettling feeling when you really start to roll the car over, and make it difficult to drive at the limit. If it is roll-oversteer, it is normally more pronouched at higher speeds.

[Schultzy89GTA]

wow I just assumed with the GTA that you were experiencing the slot car handling - if not then you aren't getting the full effect. John has you covered. We can go for a ride in my GTA at Cows if you like, most find it to be 'adequate'.

-Schultzy

[Dewey316]

as long as there aren't any bumps, I can take you for a ride in mine too.

I am a bit umm, how do you say, ground clearance limited. , and bumps hurt my kidneys.

[Xophertony]

paul, you will weld in SFCs for me? sweeet. the small stuff (like the boxing that i was going to do) i can do with my 110 wire feed piece of crap. but i need more penatration for SFCs. what i need to do now is decide which SFCs to buy or to make my own.

ok so:
Bilstein HD's for shocks.
replace worn stuff in front (tie rods are a wear part)

[Dewey316]

Tony,

Are you planning on doing this before or after cows?

There is a WHOLE lot to answer and talk about. If you are doing this after cows, lets deal with it then, We can then show you stuff on the cars, draw diagrams as needed, do math, etc.

[Xophertony]

cool. yea, after cows before the canadian challange. be sure that we do this before getting drunk

[Schultzy89GTA]

hehe project talk/bench racing - Party With The Cows V - Moo!



Moo!

-Schultzy

[Dewey316]

Mooo.

Since we are talking about firebird suspension.

[Schultzy89GTA]

LMAO! Besse says 'I <3 it!'



-Schultzy

(moo)

[alloy]

How thick of metal can you weld Paul??? I need to make up some body adapters for my 55 to mount it on my chassis rotisssery.

[Twilightoptics]

[rjmcgee]

For what it's worth I pretty much leave my 220 volt, 180 amp, mig welder on the setting for single pass on 1/8th" material. I will move the wire speed around a little for differant materials or positions. I welded up my towbar for a 7500lbs pickup and then procceded to drag it clear across the state a couple times. Most of the tow bar was 1/4" wall square tubing and 1/2" plate.

[Xophertony]

i don't care if it looks good so long as it is good .

paul, your SFC are homemade right?

Tony's Wicked Awsome SFC/Floorpan and exhaust PLAN.
.........................................................................................
you know how the passanger side floorpan is different from the driverside one? this is mostly for clearence for dual huge stock catalitic converters and exhaust. todays catalytic converters are so damn small compared to the original stockers that it's funny. catalytic converters now are "in line" and in a 3" system are about 4" tall.

so this huge hump in the way of the passangers feet is no longer needed. this brings me too...

Phase one:
i would like to flatten that section of the car out to remove this added clearence, normally this would compramise rigidity of the chassis... but with SFCs it won't make a bit of difference if i take a sledge to the floorpan.

Phase two:
tweld in SFCs (semetrical to follow new floorpan line).

phase three. re-do catback slightly. use small inline cat, with flanges at both ends for use of a uhmm "test pipe" for track use only of course , going to the existing hooker catback, only i am going to ditch the Aero-Chamber in favor of a smaller inline muffler. like Pauls, only more muffling. this thing has to pass emissions. i would do this for two reasons. one: less exhaust system length. two: one less bend in exhaust system.

would this be do-able? i don't know how much that floorpan can realy move with out cutting and wealding. but the few times i have ridden as a passanger in an Fbody i have found the floor rediculous. i would like to make my passangers more comfortable. and i am willing to take a sledge hammer to my floor to acomplish this.

[rjmcgee]

Tony, with the exhaust routed through that area I don't think you can change the floor like you want. Imagine if the exhaust ran on the drivers side with that floor pan there, the exhaust would be an inch off of the ground. I had enough trouble getting my sub frame connectors and 3" exhaust tucked up tight, wouldn't have worked with a modified floor pan.