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Who's familiar with Eaton superchargers?
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chevymad
Master B


Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 5472


1987 Pontiac Formula

PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:45 pm    Post subject: Who's familiar with Eaton superchargers? Reply with quote

Paul, Aaron? Ever since I put this charger on, i've had some noise. It scares me because it sounds so much like light detonation. Not sure if its really getting worse or if its just me but its bugging me more now.

Here's what its doing. At part throttle, accelerating under vacuum condition to light boost, you hear this noise(think ice chest with slushy ice). Step into it and it goes away. I have loaded it down before and gotten actual light pinging and this sounds different. Weird thing is as I said, it doesn't need to be under boost.

Tonight I wire tied the bypass valve open. No noise, even with the piggy back computer still attached. So its not that changing timing. Rev this thing, free rev in neutral and you can hear it. Sounds like its coming out of the charger.

I rebuilt the nose gear and coupler on this charger allready. AFR is actually too rich. It will go 10.5-11:1 under a long pull with boost. Plugs are charcoal black around the ring and have clean porcelain. No fly specs showing detonation. Heat range looks ok on the ground strap, right about at the curve. Piston tops are spotless. Part throttle during the noise afrs usually 12.5-13.

I'm thinking this noise is either normal?? or coming out of the charger. Perhaps bypass valve vibrating while it opens? Thinking of disconnecting the boost line to it to leave it closed and try it. Or maybe the center plate bearings are loose and the rotors are making noise? Though with the bypass stuck open the charger is still spinning and no noise.

Thoughts?
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chevymad
Master B


Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 5472


1987 Pontiac Formula

PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just made a new timing map. Going to try backing it off a bit earlier. Having the feeling that even though the gauge doesn't show boost it is getting some. It obviously happens when the bypass starts to close since it doesn't do it with it wired open.
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Twilightoptics
Hardcore (12sec Club)


Joined: 13 Jan 2004
Posts: 9191
Location: Auburn , WA

1987 Chevrolet Camaro IROC-Z

PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Remember this on a boosted vehicle... 100 kpa IS boost. Zero vacuum IS boost. Usually at that point you should be in the 13:1 ish range or leaner yet.

N/A car thats wide open. You're not wide open in a boosted car when you hit zero vac. You might be way rich or high on timing. I dont recall any ping like sounds with those chargers. But its a different motor.

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chevymad
Master B


Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 5472


1987 Pontiac Formula

PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This starts with the gauge showing 3-4 psi of vacuum.
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Twilightoptics
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Location: Auburn , WA

1987 Chevrolet Camaro IROC-Z

PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That should still be light load.
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Dewey316
The Lama


Joined: 08 Jan 2004
Posts: 7295
Location: Bringing the tech

1990 Chevrolet Camaro RS

PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

remember anytime you are pressurizing air, there is heat. Even when you show vacuum in the manifold the supercharger can still be pressurizing air in the intake path prior to the throttle body and thus creating heat to go along with it. Think about the timing you would need to adjust for the additional intake charge heat.

Since it sounds like it doesn't do it under WOT when you likely pull timing and add fuel to compensate for the boost, if it is pinging/detination, i would think pulling timing out ealier while you still have some vacuum, might be the trick, or if you O2 is reading right at near where it should, maybe a tick on the richer as you start to increase the load a little.

Sounds like you just need to go more conservative on the partial load tuning.

(ALL of that said without hearing the sound, who knows, it could very well be mechanical noise, or a bearing that is shot in the SC snout or something)
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chevymad
Master B


Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 5472


1987 Pontiac Formula

PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thinking we might have changed to winter fuel? Moved my timing table down til it begins under vacuum . But my win8 tablet had an issue with my serial adapter. ... again. So didn't get the ecm flashed. Just dumped in some 104 and yes the noise is lighter.
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chevymad
Master B


Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 5472


1987 Pontiac Formula

PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got my cable/tablet setup working and reflashed. Will try it out tonight see if I need to do more tomorrow.

The bit of octane boost changed the level to about what it was a month ago. Back to annoying but not sounding dangerous. I think the fuel formula must have changed last couple tanks. Wasn't just in my head that it was getting worse. Got gas at a couple different stations and no change. The makers of this setup live in higher elevation areas. Tune is probably way off for my below sea level elevation lol.

One thing John, throttle body is on the air intake side of the supercharger. Bypass valve flows the air around the charger rotors until vacuum drops to 0 and bypass shuts. Then everything goes through the rotors. Wondering if my bypass could be opening early?

Anyway, will try some tuning on the timing map.

Oh and to get a legacy device (usb to serial convertor) to work on win 8.. Install drivers, go to device manager, select the device, select update drivers, then check the compatibility check box and select the proper device. Device then should work....

Thought I'd list that where I can find it again next time win8 decides to forget my settings Smile
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Twilightoptics
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Joined: 13 Jan 2004
Posts: 9191
Location: Auburn , WA

1987 Chevrolet Camaro IROC-Z

PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That doesn't make any sense at all. If it bypasses until zero vacuum of an NA engine, then you have a mad rush of air. Hopefully it opens slowly, but that sounds like lag to me.

Turbo FTW. :O)

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chevymad
Master B


Joined: 11 Jan 2004
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1987 Pontiac Formula

PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its kinda like opening the 4 barrels allright. Same sort setup. This is how gm and now this place got around changing the na tuning and emissions up to that point.
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chevymad
Master B


Joined: 11 Jan 2004
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1987 Pontiac Formula

PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here you can see the bypass butterfly on one.






And here you see the vacuum pot on the outside that holds that valve open under vacuum then releases to start boost.



Pretty much same thing as a quadrajet secondary dashpot.
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chevymad
Master B


Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 5472


1987 Pontiac Formula

PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moved the timing table down so that it starts removing timing at 2psi vacuum. Doesn't take much, by 0 vacuum its removing 1.5* but sound nearly gone. Also interestingly, the transitions are much smoother and AFR is alot more stable. I do notice that under boost its lacking a bit of snap though. So I just upped the timing again from 2psi and up. About 1/2 way to where I started. Haven't tried that change yet, but before that I was climbing the local mountain 5th gear, 5psi, 55mph, and no rattle.

Thanks for the advice.
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chevymad
Master B


Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 5472


1987 Pontiac Formula

PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even though the AFR isn't hitting the occasional extreme rich peaks it was before.. it is apparently rich enough. Exhaust pipe is coal black and so is my right rear shackle LOL I subtracted 10% fuel now and looks a bit better. Peaking at 11.8 AFR so I should probably remove a bit more. Jeep is running much better then before. Kinda glad the winter fuel change finally forced me to do some actual tuning. The prepackaged tune is crap.
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chevymad
Master B


Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 5472


1987 Pontiac Formula

PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok. So I took the charger off for an inspection. While I didn't see anything visibly wrong with the rotors/bearings, I did find a problem with the bypass valve.



Somehow I think that's supposed to actually be round. So I couldn't get anyone to return my messages about buying one, nor find one on the net anywhere, I went ahead and made one from a butterfly out of an old monojet carb. Think this will help it build a bit more boost without that flat spot on the side.

2nd thing I found is a split in a vacuum elbow going to the original map sensor. This would let vacuum/boost bleed off a bit and not only throw off the timing/fuel curves but also let the bypass close early. By fixing these 2 things I'm back to where I was before.

Now here's the thing, noise is still there but it's definitely coming from the charger. I'm figuring it has to be the rear bearings. When I first started the jeep back up I accidentally left the vacuum line off the bypass valve. This left it closed and under slight boost at idle. The noise was there. Lower speed but definitely same noise. As soon as the bypass is opened noise goes away. Seems like anytime theres a bit of pressure on the rotors it makes noise.

Now I'm looking for a jy supercharger that looks in better condition. I was kind of disappointed in the condition of this one when I received my kit. Between the worn bypass valve, bearing noise, and I think the rotors look more abused then they should. Think I should punt and try again.

If anyone sees an early 90s gm supercharger in the yards let me know.

Oh and I went back to the original tune.. between that and the tight fitting bypass valve it feels alot stronger. With the new vacuum elbow I'm showing alot more vacuum at the same power levels now too, that definitely has to help.
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chevymad
Master B


Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 5472


1987 Pontiac Formula

PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just found a beautiuous new/used charger on ebay for $200.. Less then 35k miles on it and its shiny and new looking all over.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/251726118096?_trksid=p2060778.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

I'll feel much better running that. Looks a whole helluva lot better then the one i've got.
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aaron_sK
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Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 8834
Location: Back in beautiful Tacompton

1987 Chevrolet Camaro IROC-Z

PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's shocking how much L67 stuff has fallen off. It's getting more rare but also weirdly cheaper. Shrug

Nice find though. If there was that much wear on the bypass then I don't want to think about how many miles were on the one you have now. Laughing
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91camaro_rs
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Joined: 03 Dec 2008
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Location: Fox Island, Wa

1991 Chevrolet Camaro RS

PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

im not sure how much they charge for a S/C but pick n pull in tacoma had like 4 grand prix's that were Supercharged
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chevymad
Master B


Joined: 11 Jan 2004
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1987 Pontiac Formula

PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm betting this thing has 200k + pretty easily. I think most people are wanting the M90s which are much easier to get then these earlier m62s.

I'll take some pics of my rotors when I get this old charger off again. They're why I didn't put bearings in this thing myself. Getting rotors coated and redone is easily twice what i'm paying for the complete jy charger. Never been very happy with how this charger looked when I got my kit. Also some of the early case bearings are now out of stock. So its possible this may not even be easily rebuildable.

Car part listed most superchargers as starting at $250. Picknpull lists them at $200.. right where I'm at with this new one.
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aaron_sK
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Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 8834
Location: Back in beautiful Tacompton

1987 Chevrolet Camaro IROC-Z

PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah PnP would be $200 plus $30 core, $20 tax, and $25 enviro fee.

It's a pain in the yards anyway because the one you need only had a three year run (after they switched to the gen-III but before the switch to the M-90).

I think you did really well on it.
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chevymad
Master B


Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 5472


1987 Pontiac Formula

PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It came today. Looks awesome. You can barely tell this isn't brand new. Rotors are completely clean and unscarred. Other then a slight carbon ring around the butterfly I don't see any sign of use. And what do you know.. the bypass butterfly is round! Laughing
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